tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3132311165895432788.post6849008519207982790..comments2023-09-27T05:48:32.690-04:00Comments on The Evangelical Universalist: Gregory MacDonald really is Bad, pt 1 (a bleeding-heart, limousine liberal, idolator)Gregory MacDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06753627679140008475noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3132311165895432788.post-12592264874919636402008-07-06T11:36:00.000-04:002008-07-06T11:36:00.000-04:00Thanks Jason - that's helpful.Thanks Jason - that's helpful.Gregory MacDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06753627679140008475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3132311165895432788.post-63888211463939485812008-07-05T12:43:00.000-04:002008-07-05T12:43:00.000-04:00{{I find it interesting that his most bitter criti...{{I find it interesting that his most bitter criticism of you (ad hominem, anyone?) arises because he feels that you are a universalist because you are a limousine liberal who has led a charmed life}}<BR/><BR/>I saw that same crit of his (among other similar ones) go by during a five-or-six way debate between Calvs, Arms and Kaths (with Thomas Talbott and I on the Kath side), over at Victor Reppert's DangIdea journal several months ago. Steve retracted it when I pointed it out, for whatever that may be worth.<BR/><BR/>I don't know whether it's a case of Steve wanting vengeance on perpetrators who've hurt him and/or who've hurt people he loves, or whether it's a case of Steve projecting a hatred of 'liberal revisionists' onto anyone who disagrees with his theology (in complete disregard of how 'liberal' they actually are). Maybe some of both. God knows; I don't.<BR/><BR/>What I do know, is that I'm less concerned about any injustices inflicted on me (such as by, to take a small example, Steve Hays {wry g}), and far more concerned about injustices <I>I</I> am inclined to inflict on people (probably including, to take a small example, Steve Hays. {self-critical g}) I hope for God to act to save other people from their sin, precisely because I hope and trust God to act to save <I>me</I> from <I>my</I> injustice and sin (and to save others from my sinful injustice, too), leading me to reconcile with them in penitence.<BR/><BR/>Which, as I clearly recall, more than a few scriptures have something to say about, too! (If I am not willing to show mercy and forgiveness to those who trespass against me, then <I>I</I> am the one who will not be forgiven by God. A warning I take very seriously, as a penitent sinner.)<BR/><BR/>JRPJason Pratthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01602238179676591394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3132311165895432788.post-888834406997644862008-07-05T08:13:00.000-04:002008-07-05T08:13:00.000-04:00Richard - that's kind of you. ThanksRachel - Hello...Richard - that's kind of you. Thanks<BR/><BR/>Rachel - Hello again. I had not picked up on that. I guess that there is some truth in the claim that I have not been the victim of major injustices so it is all very well for me to say that God will redeem the one who inflicts the injustice. I can see why someone might feel that. However, a Christian ought to be able to get past that. The God of the Bible is the God who pardons and transforms and reconciles people who deserve none of those things.<BR/><BR/>You are absolutely right that Moltmann and Adams develop universalisms in ways that take horrors deeply seriously. Thanks for noting that. <BR/><BR/>As you know I find both Moltmann and Adams helpful although I do have some serious hesitations with both of them. My main problem with Adams is that she seems to collapse human finitude and human sin. I get the feeling that for her we are damaged (inevitably because our finitude) and need mending, rather than sinful and in need of forgiveness. We are both.<BR/>My problem with Moltmann is that on his view nobody seems to go to Hell at all. That would be nice if it were biblical.<BR/><BR/>Pax<BR/><BR/>GMGregory MacDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06753627679140008475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3132311165895432788.post-37982033676562159952008-07-05T01:37:00.000-04:002008-07-05T01:37:00.000-04:00I find it interesting that his most bitter critici...I find it interesting that his most bitter criticism of you (ad hominem, anyone?) arises because he feels that you are a universalist because you are a limousine liberal who has led a charmed life, when there are some voices today arguing for universalism from the perspective of the oppressed. <BR/><BR/>Marilyn McCord Adams writes:<BR/><BR/> <I>Focus on horrors clinches my universalism, because horrors are levellers, inficting their prima <BR/>facie life-ruining power on both perpetrator and victim alike. My confidence <BR/>that all horror participants are redeemed from ruin rests on the conviction <BR/>that the worst evils are too bad even for the guilty; or better, that horrors <BR/>are no respecter of moral worth, indeed evacuate it of its usual significance.</I> <BR/><BR/>Moltmann, who deals a lot with oppression and liberation, also has a universalistic eschatology with justice for victims and perpectrators alike.Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10425507979635780287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3132311165895432788.post-78728606035705186352008-07-04T17:33:00.000-04:002008-07-04T17:33:00.000-04:00I've just read your responses on the website, very...I've just read your responses on the website, very gracious.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com